The Gravy Debate: FlagLive v. The Noise
Our good friend Chipotle Frank recently wrote a scathing review of one of Flagstaff’s many generic country/rock outfits, Gravy. You know, one of those bands that play at Charly’s and it pisses you off because you don’t want to see the band because one just like it is playing down the street, but you’ve got to pay the cover just to go upstairs to get a beer at Zane Grey’s, the other bar in the historic Weatherford Hotel. Or, I think, they also fit in well with the type of band you might see playing outside of Flagbrew on the patio, drawing in tourists longing for that fresh-off-the-mountain-good-ol-boy-simple-charm feeling that only comes from cowboy hats, the twang of a western guitar, and lyrics that suggest, “I’m sexist as hell, but I’m too damn ‘country’ to admit that’s a bad thing.”
Then, in response, Ryan Heinsius, editor of FlagLive, the other local arts newspaper, wrote a scathing review of Mr. Frank’s review of the band, referring to The Noise as “garbage” and Chipotle Frank as “obnoxious” among many other patronizing and sarcastic degradations. His basic argument, it seems to me, is that citizens should support anything and everything local, no matter how generic, immoral, or just plain stupid the detail in question might be.
Before I go more into the specifics of Heinsius’ heinous remarks, there are a few things about FlagLive that I should make clear. FlagLive is barely local. A lot of their articles are syndicated. They have a section called “Ask a Mexican,” where people are allowed to be racist and then the paper can respond in a way that points out how funny it is to be racist. Most importantly, though, is that FlagLive operates out of the Arizona Daily Sun office, the major News newspaper in the area. This, of course, takes care of their funding, advertising, and printing. The Noise is independently owned, funded, written, designed, and printed. Those who run the paper, seek out advertising. Stories are written by members of the community, therefore, reflecting issues that every day Joes in town can relate to. Everything in the Noise and everything that makes The Noise possible is local and wouldn’t be what it is without the hard work of local people who care about local issues.
I think Frank’s main concern with band’s like Gravy is the fact that a lot of bands that play downtown sound the same, have the same audience, and musically, aren’t really doing anything unique. Generic rock bands follow a script, it seems, which is reflected in everything from they’re lyrics, to their image, to the timing of their jokes. There is nothing local about that. There are a lot of great bands in town with no venue to play in because of a shortage in all-ages venues. When there are all-ages venues, the greedy owners take all they can for themselves, make the whole event a pain in the ass, and leave virtually nothing for the bands (111 anyone?). But that’s a whole other issue. So here we have a lot of fantastic local bands, each with their own unique sound (in many cases, the music goes to support local important causes) playing in basements, kitchens, and living rooms…..and generic bands that all sound the same, get mullah for playing in bars, and we’re supposed to believe they’re representing the local music seen?
The point is: Heinsius’s article was just lip service. He talked more about how stupid Frank is for spelling “The Byrds” with an “i” instead of a “y.” Heinsius and his generic, syndicated newspaper, made for fans of generic crappy music, simply don’t have a clue when it comes to what is local and what is meaningful.
Frank pointed out The Byrds when describing the sound of Gravy. This isn’t to say the Byrds weren’t good or influential; it is, rather, a commentary on the fact that The Byrd’s were popular decades ago and if the music your town is producing sounds the same as the music thirty years ago, then that’s a problem. What if I started a band that sounded exactly like Pink Floyd. It wouldn’t work. Of course Pink Floyd was good at the time, but good music, produced by individually creative people—reflecting their time and location—will have it’s own unique sound. Most of all, the continuity it will bring will reflect a true local spirit.
There was a quote that I thought was striking and reflective of the mindset we’re up against here: “we who live in Flag don’t need much to get by, we’re a simple breed. We don’t need much, that is, except for each other.” I don’t think Heinsius really lives here. If he did, he would notice that Flagstaff is deeply, intensely divided by race and class. He would also notice the ½ million-dollar mansions and golf courses sproling further and further into the wilderness just a few miles from trailer homes and bungalows. He would notice the homeless who are arrested for sleeping. This whole “we’re a simple breed” mantra is reflective of the bubble in which Flagstaff’s elite reside. Speak for yourself; I happen to consider myself a complex individual with needs, desires, thoughts, and feelings that are unique to me. There are, I think, two major categories in which “local” is understood: One is an illusion, a fallacy, a lie that people living in the bubble tell themselves their community should be like. They fit their expectations of Flagstaff to suite their ideal perception, thus ignoring reality. The other perception of “local” is derived from the people, what the people are into, what the people create, and how these creations make this town unlike any other.
Another quote: “And so, I challenge everyone who reads these pages to become voracious cultural advocates for this town.” To me, being an advocate is not synonymous with supporting everything in town simply because it was produced here. I will advocate, however, that people not let a corporate arts magazine define who “we” are. If you and your other “simple breed” friends want to listen to “simple breed” music and believe you are supporting locality, that’s your choice. I will not advocate, nor be a part of your illusion.
At the end of the article, Heinsius expressed grief towards the imminent closing of Gopher Records. I do appreciate that. What kind of collage town doesn’t have their own independent record store? It is sad, but also very reflective of the way Flagstaff is moving. Independently owned shops are closing and corporate shops are taking their place. If this trend continues, there will be nothing, except the people, that make this town different from any other. Heinsius also mentioned the possibility of a Starbucks moving downtown. I have faith in the people of this town…I have faith that bricks would fly through the windows of that place before it were even open. You can’t support local music, businesses, or spirit if you aren’t willing to support them for their individuality and contribution. Generic bands like Gravy denude this town’s cultural significance in the same way that a downtown Starbucks would. I understand that Gravy’s music represents a genre that fills a niche in this town, but that niche just seems to be getting bigger and bigger, leaving no room for everybody else. Your sentiments reinforce the notion that there is no room for dissenting voices: speak badly about anything in town and your not supporting locality. What’s the difference between that and the idea that if I don’t support the war, I’m anti-American? Break though the bubble, Heinsius. This town is bigger and more culturally diverse than you could possibly know.
Or, why don’t you just write more about R. Kelly, because he deeply affects my life here in Flagstaff 2007.
Explore posts in the same categories: local politix
February 11th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
[…] Also, here are two responses to the Live/Gravy from our writers Natasha Shealy and Kyle Boggs. More is sure to come! […]
February 12th, 2007 at 7:49 am
Kyle, great accessment of the situation. It sounds like the Live needs to get their heads out of their asses….And about a possible Starbucks in the downtown? Oh yes, bricks will fly.
February 12th, 2007 at 9:09 am
Thanks for the heads up on this. A very good read. What comes to mind when talking about local businesses going “out of business” is: Why the hell aren’t the papers covering the REAL reason most of these businesses are going under? *RAISED LEASE AND/OR RENT COSTS* If they wanna talk shit about someone not being local, why not talk it on the land-owners themselves. Look at it this way… the following LOCAL businesses have gone under because of incredibly raised rents within the past few years:
-that news stand on the corner of aspen and san fran.
-the old joe’s place.
-the camera shop where Pita Pit now is.
etc…
these lots are most likely paid for in full, either lining the pockets of someone in town, or out of town. (research time anyone?)
February 12th, 2007 at 10:09 am
The Mexican says: Gracias for misrepresenting my column!
February 12th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Senor Arellano,
Thank you for stopping by my site and sharing your thoughts. Believe me, I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy. So I’m sorry if I misrepresented your column. Just to be sure though, let’s take a look at your most recent work:
You’re right in saying I misrepresented your column as allowing people to be racist and then laughing at that racism. I apologize. You clearly advocate sexism as well. I’ll be sure not to get it wrong next time. Thank you for contributing so much to our community.
Despite my retaliation sarcasm, I do enjoy your column from time to time and I’ve read an interview with you in UTNE and you seem like your intentions are good. In combating racial mythology, I guess I don’t understand your tactics enough to enjoy it. I guess the question becomes, are you combating or reinforcing? That’s just me though. I know a lot of people read and enjoy your column. Frankly, you have nothing to do with my rant on Flaglive. So I do honestly apologize for that.
February 13th, 2007 at 9:19 am
I disagree, there is a valid point about bringing up “SYNDICATED ARTICLES” like “Ask A Mexican.” It’s not the content (which I personally detect as being racist to an extent,) but rather the fact that it is syndicated from an OC Weekly writer. That’s California folks. I’m not knocking Mr. Arellano, he should be able to get his money where he can. Who I am knocking is the “local bwoyee” editor of the Live. He claims to support locals no matter what, but I’m confused… Who’s choice is is it to run articles, columns, reviews, etc from out of towners when other local arts papers are having to add pages because they are overflowing with LOCALLY produced content. Doesn’t this practice seem hypocritical? How come we don’t have a “Ask a Navajo” column in the Live? Has anyone done a rundown of space taken by people that don’t even live in nor care about Flagstaff? (Nicki Escudero anyone?) Oh, and if you’re reading Ryan, we here at “robothouse” are not “Jealous” of you, or Nicki E, We keep a good ear to the ground and call em like we see em. She’s a horrible writer, and your staff knows it. Your bullshit writer contacted ME to get a hold of Mihio Manus for photos he took at Studio 111 while “I” ran it 2 years prior. They didn’t even talk about what we did there, how we grew positive community response, and why people like Shan Dan and Wildman’s were trying to “keep 111″ alive for their own benefit. Hell, she didn’t even get cool info like the fact that we (the now defunct “Flagstaff Youth Project”) were headed towards non-profit status and that we were awarded the Flagstaff Cultural Partners Arts & Science Grant the same month we were “evicted” for no reason by Jim Mansene and eventually had to turn the grant down.
A lot of the events I deal with are small, don’t always pull a large crowd, and are exclusively all ages. These factors exclude pretty much all the local venues in town. Bars are all +21 or don’t deal with the underage crowd well. The Boardwalk would rather cater to the after hours shooting crowd and have their bouncers rough up my underage audience and bands. Other bars won’t even deal with the all ages crowd. The City and NAU require too much in the terms of money and timing. The Orpheum has CRAZY high prices even to start dealing with them. So, it’s only natural that these events either don’t happen, or they go to underground venues and aren’t covered in the weekly/monthly papers. It’s much more fun that way.
While I’m amped on coffee, I might as well rant on the band list produced by this “editor.” I count at least 5 of these bands that have been defunct for at least a year, and at least 2 that actually contain the elusive “Chipotle Frank” as a band member. I can also produce a list of active bands and artists that devastates that 2-3 fold… if you want to have a pissing contest about who’s “more local”… since that’s what his editorial piece was all about. Pissing contests. Good ole’ boy pissing contests. I don’t condone this, especially by an Arts Paper Editor. I’d like to know if he even read the “pro local” article written by Chipotle Frank on the facing page of the band review.
I’ll also call bullshit on the people that wrote in to the Live about the editor’s response and, in the same breath congratulate them as well as talk some more trash on the Live. Here goes:
-Bullshit, I’ve been living here for 10 years now. Flagstaff does have a GREAT music scene. It’s just not necessarily the one represented by the Flag Live, nor is it the one represented by the Noise. It’s underground. It shouldn’t be published in the paper. It’s kids cooking spaghetti for a punk rock band that’s rolling around the country on their last $100. Then putting them op for the night on your living room floor. It’s getting sweaty in a basement or apartment complex listening to some alt-country band play the saw and fiddle. It’s the shows advertised only by rotting silk screened flyers seen only on alleyway utility poles. Sometimes it’s illegal. Sometimes it’s fun. To quote a punk rock icon I loathe: “What we do is secret.” It’s the stuff that isn’t in the Live and most likely shouldn’t be. I even had to turn down information requested by someone who does the “arts calendar” for the AZDAILY SUN concerning info on underground venues. The Arts aren’t going to ahnd themselves over to you in a neat weekly presentable medium. The town also isn’t going to make it easy for you to bring more arts to town. I know this personally with my attempts to make things happen in this town. Don’t complain about it, figure out a good method to fix the problem. We can all be problem solvers, folks…
-Congratulations, you have called out the 4 bars for doing what they know how to do. Bars are bars to MAKE MONEY and GET PEOPLE DRUNK, not to give a shit about the arts or music. I’ve dealt with practically every bar and venue in town over the past 8-10 years and I must say this. They care about making money. That is all. You can wax on about how you’re a music venue, but as soon as the music detracts from profits, it’s out the window. Oh, the Orpheum? It’s a venue? Hell no, it’s a glorified bar. Ask the owners and investors where their profit comes from. Ask them why they’re expanding their bar. What’s the percentage of all ages shows to +21 shows? You might read this and say, wow, he doesn’t like the Orpheum. Actually, I believe quite the opposite. It’s an awesome venue and has a kickass sound system when someone is running it correctly… but I’m just stating the obvious. It’s a business and a business gots’ to make money somehow! But I could be wrong. Maybe +$20 ticket sales of acts like Shooter Jennings are paying the rent, who knows?
-More trash on the Live: I like the Live. It’s a good read. Surprise! I’m not kidding. It’s a paper. It has words. They do a pretty good job about reporting the local news and arts. They have a lot of ads. They’re owned by Flagstaff Publishing Company, what I believe is a subsidiary of Pulitzer Publishing. Very corporate and not local by any means. They gotta pay the bills somehow. OF COURSE they’re not going to get everything right, nor cover everything (They usually only printed about 1 our of every 3 events I sent them info on when running Studio 111.) But they try, and that’s the thing that counts. What I call bulllshit on is this. When you’re going to “call out” a rival paper who has a different opinion on a BAND YOU’RE FRIENDS WITH and then say that they’re not supporting the local arts, I’ll say it’s bullshit. I’ll also say it’s bullshit to take pot shits at a poorly written letter to the editor.
Ok, enough ranting for now. Was this constructive? Probably not. I should probably re-do this as a letter to the Editor of the Live. Anyone wanna bet whether or not they’d print it?
February 13th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Ray, thanks for the fantastic rant! I wanted to reiterate that I apologized to the ‘Ask A Mexican’ guy for no other reason than because picking on him personally or his column wasn’t the intention of my initial post. You’re right though, despite the content of his column, it serves as a good example of this problem of syndication under the guise of locality. It’s pretty bo bo hypicritical. I think the “Ask a Navajo” idea sounds utterly fantastic and relevant to this area for sure. I also appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge about local business/music shananigans.
Side note: Does Flag still have a Hip Hop sceen? It would be great to bring in an artist for MARSfest. I’d also like to talk to you about my March article for The Noise. I’m going to explore the questions: What is local? What does local mean and who or what should define it? Of course, I’ll tie it to the environment as well. I’ll holler at you in the next couple days.
February 15th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Kyle,
All in all a good point. You make your best points when detecting the true evil.
The buying of social capitol.
Gravy is okay. Just not for me…
February 15th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
ps
i think this man called “Ray” has had too much coffee
February 16th, 2007 at 7:12 am
Futhermore, checkout this weeks Live.
More letters…
February 24th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
1. Gravy doesn’t just play at FBC and Charly’s. You can also catch them at the Museum Club (known to actually fire bands mid-show if the crowd doesn’t like them). Luckily, Gravy hasn’t been fired and does a good job ENTERTAINING the patrons and selling beer (got to keep people on the dance floor). If you don’t like Flagstaff, catch Gravy in Tempe, Prescott, Sedona, Telluride, Rico, Durango……
2. “one of Flagstaff’s many generic country/rock outfits” - I have not seen any other bands with a Pedal Steel….but since everybody here is such a music expert, you can probably play one too! Nor have I seen another band that touches the Gravy repertoire….almost forgot that you are all music history experts too.
3. “Cliché after cliché ” - it’s not rocket science….it’s country music…dig a little deeper and you may find some messages about manifest destiny and eminant domain.
These guys will never make it main stream….they are counter culture……they just candy coat with a positive attitude. They are taking new directions for the format. So how about hip hop or even punk rock? Just because you discovered it lately, doen’t mean it is new… Go google “Darby Crash” or “Sugar Hill Gang”. Still…new groups have evolved these genres.
4.”academic and trained musicians” If you call playing 15 years in bars and clubs “Academic”. Let us call it the “University of hard knocks and drunk assholes”?
5 “‘dirty white boys’ (sometimes with dreads)” - I believe Rand is in Texas playing the Country Thunder festival (countrythunder.com). I would say he is at least breaking down some barriers and stereotypes. He’s not building walls like some folks.
btw - These guys have all been a strong backbone in the WHOLE Flagstaff music scene. They have all helped out many of the other struggling and younger bands. From guitar lessons to producing albums and demos as well as music biz advice and even getting bands gigs. Over the years these guys have played in every kind of band imaginable playing every kind of music under the sun. They have fun doing what they are doing now and find it challenging. What started out as a free wednesday night deal for poops and giggles has evolved to a big audience that buys tickets to see these guys.
February 26th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
I won’t pretend to know Gravy as well as you. I’ve only seen them once by accident, at Charleys. I have nothing against Gravy either…I’ll admit, the became kind of a scapegoat through all this.
It’s just that there are a lot of fantastic bands and musicians in town, but there is only one breed of music that gets gigs downtown on a regular basis. I resent the idea that we’re all supposed to bow down to these bands simply because they’re local. The bars don’t give a shit about supporting local music. They book bands that, as you said, will sell beer. That’s not the kind of locality I feel comfortable supporting.
I do appreciate your comments though. Thanks for stopping by.
February 26th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
All I can say is that the chipotle frank guy keeps taking stabs at them. I must say he has some sort of personal vendetta. Maybe he lost a girlfriend/boyfreind to a guy in Gravy. His mind was made up and he obviously didn’t listen through the album, and isn’t open minded enough to see them live. So how could a review be objective or even subjective? Perhaps he’ll use his real name next time. He’s better off probably remaining hidden……someone might just beat his little ass.
February 26th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Hey Kyle,
would you please name some of these other fantastic bands/musicians in town? I am open to see them and would be glad to help support them.
As far as the Gravy guys go…they have been doing this long enough to know what makes money and what doesn’t in bars…
They have to change it up every couple of years too as the demands/fashion of the times change. If you were around over the last years you may have seen them in funk bands and reggae bands and jazz and even electronica/experimental bands. Oh….but I forget that has all been done already….not cool…can’t go reinventing the wheel. Maybe they should invent new instruments that they can’t play and that will be a novel gadget. They can play for free at home or around the campfire.
But these guys don’t strive to pay to play. Probably why your paper needs advertisers to get printed. I understand the business, so I won’t call you guys sell-outs.
And as far as local goes…..these guys have been dicked over and lied to at some point or another by every venue in town. What allows these guys to survive is their fans. They will come see Gravy regardless of the venue. So stop trying to take that away from them. If your band can get gigs and expects a huge following that you think is built in to the bar….guess again. If you don’t suck, build it and they will come. Gravy doesn’t suck. In fact, they blow away many of their national counterparts that are way hyped by some management company and they can get $25/ticket at the Orpheum. The Orpheum will try to give Gravy $100 to “come and open and bring their fanbase”.
How local is that holmes?
Also, I’ll make mention that I feel you were not defending Franks freedom of speech or the controversy of The Flag Live, but you were obviously the stating same opinion of the band……
Remember this bit that you wrote?
“Our good friend Chipotle Frank recently wrote a scathing review of one of Flagstaff’s many generic country/rock outfits, Gravy. You know, one of those bands that play at Charly’s and it pisses you off because you don’t want to see the band because one just like it is playing down the street, but you’ve got to pay the cover just to go upstairs to get a beer at Zane Grey’s”….”Or, I think, they also fit in well with the type of band you might see playing outside of Flagbrew on the patio, drawing in tourists longing for that fresh-off-the-mountain-good-ol-boy-simple-charm feeling that only comes from cowboy hats, the twang of a western guitar, and lyrics that suggest, “I’m sexist as hell, but I’m too damn ‘country’ to admit that’s a bad thing.”
These guys aren’t sexist…..they have wifes and kids.
They also support and preach about alternative and renewable energy sources.
February 26th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Dearest Music Fan,
I don’t know why you have to go on and on talking this band up. I already told you, I don’t know much about the band. I heard them once, and the music, like a bad laxative, just didn’t move me like it should.
None of this really matters because we’re talking about two different things. You’re defending your favorite band and you believe they’ve been misrepresented. I already told you that they became a scapegoat through, what I believe to be a much larger topic. My initial argument spurred from the simple idea that the editor of the Live felt it was his duty to define what it means to support local music, when all he knows is a fraction of the music that is played in this town. Does that make me an expert? A music historian? No.
Mr. Frank wrote a music review and you didn’t like it. What do you want me to do about it? Here is how music reviews work: Mr. Frank writes his own personal opinion about a CD. The review doesn’t represent everybody who writes for the paper. It just so happens that I have similar tastes and opinions about music. This particular reviewer has been around here for a while and has played in many different bands in town and some people find him credible. I’m one of those people; you’re obviously not. It is possible, you know, to disagree with a review without having a hissy fit. I disagree with most of the music reviews I read.
If a music reviewer is simply supposed to say that every band in Flagstaff is wonderful, than that wouldn’t really be a review would it?
I’m so done with this argument. If you feel like you have to continue your Gravy history lesson, maybe you should think about starting a tribute site or a fan zine. I admire anyone who is passionate about music in any capacity, but I really don’t care.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
It is quite clear that that dude has a man crush on Ryan Heinsius and would take his job in an instant if he could.